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Tech => Projects => Topic started by: workgoats on October 13, 2015, 01:18:02 PM

Title: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on October 13, 2015, 01:18:02 PM
Well, I finally got Aaron paid and picked up the 57 truck.  It needs a lot of work but there is potential.

It will become my only project, outside of lifting the Grand Cherokee so the tires stop rubbing.

Here is a picture that Aaron took a year or two back.  It still looks the same except there are more flats now.  The license plate on the front says 1965!  I guess this truck has been sitting in some pasture, somewhere, for almost 50 years.  It shows less than 30k miles on the odometer.

Where to start?
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on October 13, 2015, 01:31:34 PM
Not being able to restore the truck, I plan to put a modern axle in the front and modify the rear axle to use 8 lug wheels.  I have a HD D44 to go in the front.  I'm pretty sure I have to change the axle ratio in it though.  The truck came with a closed knuckle Dana 44 (Spicer) and 409 gears. 

The rear axle is listed in a couple of places as a Mopar 8 3/4" full floater.  Even Rock Auto lists parts for it under that designation.  Only problem is there are way too many bolts.  1957 was the first year for the 8 3/4 axle and this one does have a removable third member but it has 12 bolts instead of 10.  Also the rear cover on the differential should be welded and it is a bolt on, again with 12 bolts.

Here are some pics.  If anyone knows what it is, speak up.  I have checked a bunch of axle identification charts and haven't found anything to match.  I'll clean up the casting numbers and check them this weekend but I'm out of state beginning early in the morning till Friday.

It has a bunch of springs, I don't know if I want to update the spring packs or not.


Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: ProjectM880 on October 13, 2015, 03:05:16 PM
That looks like a Eaton axle. May do some research there.
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on October 13, 2015, 08:40:30 PM
I looked at a bunch of Eaton pictures and quite a few Timken but I haven't found ths e right one yet.  Still looking.  With it being so low mileage I think I can get by with replacing a couple of gaskets and the pinon shaft seal.

One thing that looks odd related to the Eaton axles is that the fill plug is usually on the back cover but this one is on the third member case.

The older 2x 3/4 ton truck that is out at Nick's house has one of the split Timken axles in it.  Anybody want one?
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: taz_man440 on October 14, 2015, 10:04:23 AM
That is awesome!!  Whats the plan restore to stock or update to modern engine / tranny too?? What about the home made jeep? Good to see ya around again....
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on October 14, 2015, 02:15:09 PM
Newer HD D44 in the front. 360 Magnum till the 383 is built.

Have some other ideas but down the road.

I will need a step side bed before too long.

The home made Jeep will be going but I'm gonna graft the front clip onto the 88 XJ.
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: SixGun on October 14, 2015, 02:36:04 PM
Bye bye old Yeller.   :icon_salut:
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on October 17, 2015, 05:42:45 PM
Well Richard, the good stuff I did on the yellow truck will find a home.  Engine and transmission in the 57, front end in the 88 XJ, cameras and video stuff in something...

Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on October 17, 2015, 06:10:38 PM
I removed the gas tank, the bed and running boards and the driveshafts.  The driveshafts both had the slip joints completely collapsed.  Both axles are out of position to the center.  The pic of the fender shows the wheel too far forward and the next pic shows the springs shifted on the rear axle. 

Finally, I removed the rear cover on the differential and find that it might or might not have a removable third member.  There are some casting numbers on the front part of the case.  I don't have them handy now but I have been unable to find anything similar to them on any identification web sites.  By the way, it has twelve studs on the back (7/16" fine threads and one 3/8" course thread bolt at the bottom that serves as a drain plug).  The fill plug is on the front case.

This number is stamped on the ring gear:  ORMATE 1500552 4 11 MS3103P8956

I assume that means the axle has 411 gears.  Standard is said to be 410 in the shop manual.

In cleaning out the bottom of the case I found a couple pieces of metal.  One piece looks like part of one spline.  The other looks like part of a 1/4" bolt or a pin.  That means, to me, that I will need to pull the axle shafts and the front case to see if there is anything that should be replaced or repaired.

I still don't know what the axle is.  Anyone got any other suggestions?
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on October 17, 2015, 06:35:58 PM
Research shows that the stamp probably should be "Formate", with formate gears having straight cuts on the ring gear. The ring gear teeth are good but the spider gears are straight cut too.  I can't see all of them so it could be there.  The right side axle binds some when you spin the wheel.  Really makes it suspect.  the axle shafts have holes tapped for "pulling screws".  One of the holes on the right axle shaft has a bolt broken off in it.  Could be a problem.  Find out tomorrow.
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: SixGun on October 17, 2015, 07:43:16 PM
Whoa man is that a leaf pack
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on October 17, 2015, 08:27:39 PM
Quote from: SixGun on October 17, 2015, 07:43:16 PM
Whoa man is that a leaf pack

yeah, I think it will have to go, but i still want to be able to pull a horse trailer with a couple of big horses.
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: ProjectPW on October 19, 2015, 07:47:26 AM
Awesome truck  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on October 19, 2015, 01:45:11 PM
I'm still trying to identify the rear axle.  It has the appearances of an Eaton and I have found some pics of an Eaton HO52 and HO72 but the bolt pattern is different and the fill plug is located on the other side of the axle.  There are some references that some cheby parts can be used, including the carrier, axles and hubs but I'm still investigating that arrangement.

If I can get hubs and axle shafts working, it will go to disc brakes and that's fairly straight forward.  The original hub will have to be replaced because of the diameter and bolt pattern but the axle shafts wont work in a newer hub so it may take some additional swapping.
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on November 12, 2015, 07:45:14 AM
I won't be doing much on this till I get a title.  I will however try to patch the holes in the roof.  I found that the center section of the roof to the VW, turned sideways, made a good match to the area with the holes.  I will soon be grafting the VW sheet metal into the center of the cab roof.

Otherwise, exploring the world of "Bonded Titles".
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: rjtx667 on November 16, 2015, 09:14:49 AM
Sounds like fun.

Hopefully the bonded title works better for you this go round.
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on November 23, 2015, 07:45:55 AM
I do too, but all the other cars in my family need work first.  Rear freeze plug on the grand daughter's Grand Cherokee, oil leak on the Tahoe, transmission on son-in-laws Dodge, Tracy's car totaled and will have to set up brake controller on the next one, lift kit ordered for my Jeep...

Wow, that's all the cars we have!

Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: SixGun on November 23, 2015, 12:10:20 PM
Sounds like you need more cars. :dontknow:
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on November 23, 2015, 07:35:02 PM
That's all the cars that we have on the road.  I still have a Grand Cherokee parts car, the red Cherokee, the yeller truck and parts of a VW.  And then there's the 57....

The parts car will leave soon, just need a few more parts.

The yeller truck will leave soon, with the front clip going on the red cherokee.

The VW will go with the parts car.
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on December 13, 2015, 11:33:53 PM
I'm gathering a few parts but the rules for a bonded title state that the vehicle has to be intact, with basically a drivetrain and a body.  I have submitted my first paperwork to the Regional TxDMV office by mail.  We will see what happens next.

Supposedly they will value the vehicle because it is over 25 years old and, if nothing excites them in a title search, I will have a year to get a bond (minimum is a bond on $4000) and thirty days to submit to the tax office after securing the bond.  Best I can tell, the bond should not cost over $100.

Has anyone been this route before?
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: rjtx667 on December 14, 2015, 08:43:15 AM
hmm my bond was not that big. it was like 1500... but the price is about right.

Once you get approval, the bond is easy and getting the title is easy.

You should be good to go.

Also remember that after 3 years the "bond" part which shows on the title can be removed and no longer effects the title.

The mexico ramcharger hits 3 years this coming march.
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on January 01, 2016, 09:49:43 PM
I've hit a snag again on this.  They tell me that the truck was never registered in Texas so I have to get it inspected or get a form 68A from an auto theft unit.

Inspection is not gonna happen so the next question is where do I have to go to get a 68A from a auto theft unit.  Is this supposed to be DPS, County, City or what?

Best I can tell we don't have an "auto theft unit" in our county.

Truck did have a 66 farm tag on the front bumper so I may try to get them to search again.  The VIN was originally inside the glove box on a paper tag and stamped into the left front frame rail.  There is a tag on the firewall that is a body number.  I think it is possible that it was registered with the body number.  I'll call them and see what happens.
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on January 07, 2016, 02:04:44 PM
i told them it had a 1966 farm tag.  They said that on vehicles that hadn't been registered in the last few years they treat it as being from out of state and I can either get it inspected or take it to an auto theft task force office.  Not one in this county.  She gave me some phone numbers.  None of them service this county.  So, I'm gonna have to load it up and take it somewhere.  Hopefully I can take it to an inspection station and get the same form as for an out of state vehicle.  It just ain't gonna pass the inspection.  If that doesn't work then the closest task force office is Conroe.
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: rjtx667 on January 07, 2016, 02:08:52 PM
well thats a pain.

hopefully you can get what you need.
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on January 26, 2016, 07:50:53 AM
Anybody know if the NP 420 transmission mounts the same as the NP435?  I am thinking about temporarily installing a 360 magnum in the 57 and would like to use the transmission and transfer case as originally installed.

I have a small block bellhousing and my computer for the magnum does not use the crank sensor.
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: ProjectPW on January 29, 2016, 07:48:19 AM
I think they may be the same  :dontknow:
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on February 08, 2016, 02:21:40 PM
Paperwork is all done for the bonded title.  I have a year to get the bond and then 30 days to title without registration. :dance: (http://:dance:)
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: rjtx667 on February 09, 2016, 10:02:47 AM
great to hear!!! now you need to get it running again  :headbang:
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on May 12, 2016, 03:46:57 PM
I'm not having much time to work on this but I did buy some wheels.  Having to wait on the lug nuts though, they have to be 3/4" hex to fit in the wheels.

Meantime, my son just bought a Dodge 5.7 hemi to go in his Scrambler.  It had most of a Charger wrapped around it.  I need him to do a build thread.  He's using the D44 front axle from my Red Truck, narrowed to match the D44 rear he got from a scout.
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on May 22, 2016, 09:26:14 PM
I am working on this some.  I have secured springs for the front axle and started on new spring mounts.  I'm having trouble finding lug nuts that fit the threads on the front axle but I'm still working on it.

I found out what the rear axle is, maybe.  "Differentials, Identification, Restoration & Repair" by Jim Allen and Randy Lyman has this axle identified in the book.  It's listed as a Chrysler 9.63 Dropout or a RA-65.  It was used in Dodge military trucks from 1946 to the mid to late 70s.  It was strong enough to be used in 1 1/2 ton 6x6 vehicles and there was a front axle version made as well.

Only problem is that they say that it only came with 4.89:1 and 5.83:1.  This axle is 4.11:1.  Randy says it will handle tires up to 37s and that it comes with chrome steel alloy or carbon moly alloy axles that were shot peened for extra strength.  The axle ends are too big to use with 8 lug wheels so it will eventually be for sale.

Once I get axles temporary attached so I can move it around, the body come off and I do a frame rebuild, attaching the 360 for the time being.  Eventually the 383 will find a home here but I can't afford to rebuild it now.
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on June 23, 2016, 09:44:14 PM
Well, I decided to buy an axle instead of getting the old Ford Dana 60 from Ernest that has been laying in fields for a couple of decades.  Problem is that it had a one ton Dodge van attached to it.  It didn't turn out to be what I expected or the ration I thought the VIN indicated but the price was right.  $161.63 for the van from the prison system, engine and misc stuff in the back and no tranny.  As soon as I get the paperwork it will go across the scales and I will come out ahead.

Axle turns out to be a Dana 60 with 4.10 gears and the springs will be easy to adapt to the '57 frame.  Guess I will have to come up with some 4.10 gears to go in the HD Dana 44 in the front.  Any body need any parts off of this?
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on June 23, 2016, 09:49:50 PM
So here's a question.  The vehicle providing the engine for my son's Jeep was a Charger cop car.  It came with a Mercedes 5 speed automatic transmission.  It's a real short transmission with a flange on the back.  It came off of a 5.7 Hemi.  What would happen if I used that transmission and the divorced transfer case that came in the truck.

Is it strong enough for medium duty truck work?  Would the gear ratios make me wish I used another transmission?
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: ProjectPW on June 25, 2016, 09:45:09 AM
Quote from: workgoats on June 23, 2016, 09:49:50 PM
So here's a question.  The vehicle providing the engine for my son's Jeep was a Charger cop car.  It came with a Mercedes 5 speed automatic transmission.  It's a real short transmission with a flange on the back.  It came off of a 5.7 Hemi.  What would happen if I used that transmission and the divorced transfer case that came in the truck.

Is it strong enough for medium duty truck work?  Would the gear ratios make me wish I used another transmission?

I think the electronics would make it nearly impossible to make it function. As far as strength they are pretty tough transmissions in the SRT cars. I believe the model designation is NAG-1. It may be possible to use a factory pcm to control it, or maybe an aftermarket transmission controller is available

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmissions/NAG1-WA580.html
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: ProjectPW on June 25, 2016, 09:56:42 AM
here you  stand alone Nag1 controller:

http://soundgermanautomotive.com/pcs/

another forum stated that cost was around 1200$
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: ProjectPW on June 25, 2016, 10:17:08 AM
here is another Nag1 controller option:

http://www.hotwireauto.com/?page=sales-nag1

Those guys have a whole mess of awesome stuff!!
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: Aaron S on July 11, 2016, 10:55:30 PM
Jeez Ron, why didn't you ask me about that axle? Its a Chrysler corporate 8.75 full floater, if I remember correctly. I have another one under a dually 58 parts truck. They are kind of an odd bird. They came with 4.1:1 or 4.89:1 gears.

The 9.65 you referenced is used in flat fender Power Wagons and military trucks only (3/4 ton WC's and M37's, the earlier 1/2 ton WC's are a little bit different). And only ever came with 4.89:1 or 5.89:1 gears.

You should be ok bolting an LA engine to the NP420, but you will probably need a different bellhousing. The bellhousing in the truck is the same bolt pattern as an LA, and will bolt up, but the indexing of the crank flange and flywheel will be different, so your clutch won't work. The 315 poly you have is the tall deck Dodge hemi block, and while that flywheel and bellhousing will fit any early hemi engine (because for some reason those are the only things they all have in common) the A and LA stuff is just different enough to be a pain. A 60's era hydraulic truck bellhousing is probably the ticket, at that time they were still using the NP420, as well as the NP435 and the NP540 and shared a common bellhousing throughout. Some of them even fit small block, big block, and slant 6.
Title: Re: 57 Power Wagon
Post by: workgoats on November 25, 2016, 08:40:15 AM
I really liked the axle in the Dodge Van but it has the differential off center too far.  Anyone need a van axle?

End result is that I have a complete 10.5, 14 bolt Cheby axle and half of another one.  I guess that will be the way I go on the rear axle due to lack of cost...  I think I can pull the gears out of the one in pieces and end up with the same gears in front and back.  Probably higher ratio than I want but it will allow me to get it running sooner.